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#16 Kelso

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 10:50 PM

Here is the common way to describe the Universe before the Big Bang: Nothing.



In fact, it was so nothing that it didn't even have space. It didn't have Time. What this means is that anything, even if the probability of it happening was so close to zero we never thought it was possible, could keep "trying" forever, because Time, and therefore, time limits, didn't exist. Once a universe had been created with just the right consistency (Remember: an imperfect universe fit to explode would explode very quickly, before anythign could happen), it would by simple, then, to build atoms, molecules, and eventually stars and planets.



Now, the Human Mind:

Cells, are, at their most basic form, rather mechanical in nature. Simply zipping around in a petri dish, they seem like little machines. Most of the chemical processes seem to have been selected at random, and they have in fact been chosen not by a divine hand, but by molecules bouncing around in the early seas of Earth. Once they became more orginized, they grouped together to form large chains, that could defend themselves better as a whole. These clusters of cells did not resemble ordinary animals, but were similar conseptually. Later on, some of the cells began to specialize in movement, and directing the other cells. This configuration began to be far more efficient, and eventually led to Humans.






Have any of you ever met anybody from heaven? I'd gladly believe in it, as long as you can prove it.

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#17 AverageJoe

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:52 AM

Sorry, guys, the christians from were I live interpret the bible literally. So I admire that you are not total idiots such as them. I also used to have the same ideals as you, untill I started doing research on the matter. Here are a few things I would like to add.

Many university and college courses on Christianity or comparative religion express the view that Christianity is merely a variation of a more ancient religious theme. They teach that Christian faith developed from or was influenced by the ancient pagan mystery religions of Rome, Greece, and Egypt. Therefore, the conclusion of such courses is that Christian faith is not unique as it claims, but at best an imitation faith, claiming to be something it really is not. Professors draw numerous "parallels" between the motifs of "dying and rising," "savior"-gods, and then, observing the centrality of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in Christian faith, assert that Christianity was merely a later form of such pagan religions.

In the last hundred years, numerous books have been written that attempt to defend this idea. Among these are J.M. Robertson’s Pagan Christs1 and Kersey Graves’ The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Christianity Before Christ.2 This idea has also formed one line of argumentation for the larger theme that Jesus never existed as in G. A. Wells’ Did Jesus Exist?3 and more recently this concept has been popularized by the late mythologist Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth, The Masks of God, and other books meant to, at least in part, discredit Christianity.

What were the mystery cults? Allegedly, the teachings of the mystery religions were revealed by the Egyptian god Thoth. They were eclectic religions cults that stressed nature religion, oaths of secrecy, brotherhood, and spiritual quest. They offered rites of initiation that were associated with or dedicated to various gods and goddesses of the ancient world. In fact, these rites often inculcated contact, or "union," with the "gods" (spirits). Participants hoped to attain knowledge, power, and immortality from their worship and contact with these gods. In essence, the mystery religions were part and parcel of the world of the occult in ancient Europe and Asia. They were idolatrous, opposed Christian teachings, and not infrequently engaged in gross or immoral practices.4

Nevertheless, it was the theme of alleged dying and rising savior-gods that initially sparked the interest of some scholars and many skeptics as to whether or not Christianity was a derivative of the mysteries. For example, if there were religious cults in Palestine at the time of Christ who believed in a mythological central figure who periodically died and came back to life in harmony with certain agricultural or fertility cycles, it could be argued that Christianity was merely the offshoot of such a religion and that its distinctive theological teachings were later inventions. Hence the appeal of such an idea to skeptics of Christianity.

If true, Christianity would have been only a variation of an earlier pagan religious worldview, a religion that later evolved its distinctive theological doctrines about Jesus Christ being the unique incarnation of God and savior of men. In fact, in this scenario, the biblical Jesus need never even have existed. The mysteries were, after all, based on mythical gods. Hence, some critics (not historians) argue that Jesus was only an invented figure patterned after the life cycles of mythological gods such as Attis, Cybele, Osiris, Mithra, Adonis, Eleusis, Thrace, Dionysus, and the like.

One consequence of interpreting Christianity as an embellished mystery religion is the conclusion that Christian faith per se is the invention of men, not a revelation from God. In the end, virtually all the unique teachings of New Testament theology, including the distinctive doctrines on Jesus Christ, God, man, sin, salvation, and so on, are viewed as mere religious innovation after the fact. For example, concerning Jesus Christ, this would mean His incarnation and virgin birth, miracles and teachings, atonement for sin, physical resurrection from the dead, and promised return are not historical facts, but later revisions of pagan stories. In essence, the cardinal teachings of orthodox Christianity become lies and falsehoods.

But is it Christianity that is the invention and deception, or is such a theory itself the invention and deception of atheists and skeptics merely to discredit Christianity? If we examine the manner in which this concept is utilized, not to mention the fact that not a shred of evidence exists in support, one can begin to see where the real invention lies. One illustration is atheist John Allegro’s text, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. Allegro is a lecturer in Old Testament and Inter-Testamental Studies at the University of Manchester. He weaves the origin of Christianity into pagan religious sects, rituals, secret eulogies, and the hallucinogenic properties of a particular mushroom. Thus, "The death and resurrection story of Jesus follows the traditional patterns of fertility mythology, as has long been recognized."5 Logically then, for Allegro, the New Testament is a "hoax" because the "validity of the whole New Testament story is immediately undermined."6 Not surprisingly, he claims it is foolish for Christians to maintain their religion is a unique revelation from God.7 As a result, Allegro’s closing paragraph gives the reader the "assurance" that "we no longer need to view the Bible through die mists of piety."

Here is a religion that was formed before the times of Christ.

Mithraism is the worship of Mithra. The original source is unknown but argued to be of Persian, Indian or Chinese descent. It has been called an offshoot of Zorastrianism but that is also contested. According to Persian legends, Mithra was born of a rock and a virgin mother(like Mary) called the "Mother of God" and was first attended by shepherds. Mithra was called "the Light of the World." They believed in a heaven and hell and the dualism of good and evil, a final day of judgment( sound familiar), the end of the world as we know it and a general resurrection. Long before Jesus, Dec. 25th was celebrated as the date of Mithra's birth( wow what a cawinkidink). Mithra was also associated with the sun, and his followers marked Sunday as his day of worship(what a great day for worship), they called it the Lord's Day. A few of the extra-biblical traditions seem to have found its way to Christianity through Roman Mithraism.

I think that all religion is just built on more primitive religion.



Among the milder ceremonies of the followers of Mithra were baptism in holy water and a partaking of a sacred meal of bread and wine. After passing several ordeals the converts were "reborn" as a new man in Mithra. Though Mithra had ascended into heaven he had promised to return and bring life everlasting to his loyal followers.


To sum it all up,
1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
5. He performed miracles.
6. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
7. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
9. He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
10. He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
11. His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
12. Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
13. His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
14. "His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
15. Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
16. The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
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#18 Helions

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 06:06 AM

QUOTE(awsomejoe23 @ Mar 13 2007, 02:52 AM) View Post
Sorry, guys, the christians from were I live interpret the bible literally. So I admire that you are not total idiots such as them. I also used to have the same ideals as you, untill I started doing research on the matter. Here are a few things I would like to add.

Many university and college courses on Christianity or comparative religion express the view that Christianity is merely a variation of a more ancient religious theme. They teach that Christian faith developed from or was influenced by the ancient pagan mystery religions of Rome, Greece, and Egypt. Therefore, the conclusion of such courses is that Christian faith is not unique as it claims, but at best an imitation faith, claiming to be something it really is not. Professors draw numerous "parallels" between the motifs of "dying and rising," "savior"-gods, and then, observing the centrality of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in Christian faith, assert that Christianity was merely a later form of such pagan religions.

In the last hundred years, numerous books have been written that attempt to defend this idea. Among these are J.M. Robertson’s Pagan Christs1 and Kersey Graves’ The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Christianity Before Christ.2 This idea has also formed one line of argumentation for the larger theme that Jesus never existed as in G. A. Wells’ Did Jesus Exist?3 and more recently this concept has been popularized by the late mythologist Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth, The Masks of God, and other books meant to, at least in part, discredit Christianity.

What were the mystery cults? Allegedly, the teachings of the mystery religions were revealed by the Egyptian god Thoth. They were eclectic religions cults that stressed nature religion, oaths of secrecy, brotherhood, and spiritual quest. They offered rites of initiation that were associated with or dedicated to various gods and goddesses of the ancient world. In fact, these rites often inculcated contact, or "union," with the "gods" (spirits). Participants hoped to attain knowledge, power, and immortality from their worship and contact with these gods. In essence, the mystery religions were part and parcel of the world of the occult in ancient Europe and Asia. They were idolatrous, opposed Christian teachings, and not infrequently engaged in gross or immoral practices.4

Nevertheless, it was the theme of alleged dying and rising savior-gods that initially sparked the interest of some scholars and many skeptics as to whether or not Christianity was a derivative of the mysteries. For example, if there were religious cults in Palestine at the time of Christ who believed in a mythological central figure who periodically died and came back to life in harmony with certain agricultural or fertility cycles, it could be argued that Christianity was merely the offshoot of such a religion and that its distinctive theological teachings were later inventions. Hence the appeal of such an idea to skeptics of Christianity.

If true, Christianity would have been only a variation of an earlier pagan religious worldview, a religion that later evolved its distinctive theological doctrines about Jesus Christ being the unique incarnation of God and savior of men. In fact, in this scenario, the biblical Jesus need never even have existed. The mysteries were, after all, based on mythical gods. Hence, some critics (not historians) argue that Jesus was only an invented figure patterned after the life cycles of mythological gods such as Attis, Cybele, Osiris, Mithra, Adonis, Eleusis, Thrace, Dionysus, and the like.

One consequence of interpreting Christianity as an embellished mystery religion is the conclusion that Christian faith per se is the invention of men, not a revelation from God. In the end, virtually all the unique teachings of New Testament theology, including the distinctive doctrines on Jesus Christ, God, man, sin, salvation, and so on, are viewed as mere religious innovation after the fact. For example, concerning Jesus Christ, this would mean His incarnation and virgin birth, miracles and teachings, atonement for sin, physical resurrection from the dead, and promised return are not historical facts, but later revisions of pagan stories. In essence, the cardinal teachings of orthodox Christianity become lies and falsehoods.

But is it Christianity that is the invention and deception, or is such a theory itself the invention and deception of atheists and skeptics merely to discredit Christianity? If we examine the manner in which this concept is utilized, not to mention the fact that not a shred of evidence exists in support, one can begin to see where the real invention lies. One illustration is atheist John Allegro’s text, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. Allegro is a lecturer in Old Testament and Inter-Testamental Studies at the University of Manchester. He weaves the origin of Christianity into pagan religious sects, rituals, secret eulogies, and the hallucinogenic properties of a particular mushroom. Thus, "The death and resurrection story of Jesus follows the traditional patterns of fertility mythology, as has long been recognized."5 Logically then, for Allegro, the New Testament is a "hoax" because the "validity of the whole New Testament story is immediately undermined."6 Not surprisingly, he claims it is foolish for Christians to maintain their religion is a unique revelation from God.7 As a result, Allegro’s closing paragraph gives the reader the "assurance" that "we no longer need to view the Bible through die mists of piety."

Here is a religion that was formed before the times of Christ.

Mithraism is the worship of Mithra. The original source is unknown but argued to be of Persian, Indian or Chinese descent. It has been called an offshoot of Zorastrianism but that is also contested. According to Persian legends, Mithra was born of a rock and a virgin mother(like Mary) called the "Mother of God" and was first attended by shepherds. Mithra was called "the Light of the World." They believed in a heaven and hell and the dualism of good and evil, a final day of judgment( sound familiar), the end of the world as we know it and a general resurrection. Long before Jesus, Dec. 25th was celebrated as the date of Mithra's birth( wow what a cawinkidink). Mithra was also associated with the sun, and his followers marked Sunday as his day of worship(what a great day for worship), they called it the Lord's Day. A few of the extra-biblical traditions seem to have found its way to Christianity through Roman Mithraism.

I think that all religion is just built on more primitive religion.



Among the milder ceremonies of the followers of Mithra were baptism in holy water and a partaking of a sacred meal of bread and wine. After passing several ordeals the converts were "reborn" as a new man in Mithra. Though Mithra had ascended into heaven he had promised to return and bring life everlasting to his loyal followers.


To sum it all up,
1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
5. He performed miracles.
6. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
7. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
8. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
9. He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
10. He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
11. His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
12. Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
13. His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
14. "His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
15. Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
16. The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"



what did i tell you about citing your references? you shouldn't just copy and paste from other websites without telling us where you got it from...i did you a favor and found some of the sites you snatched these words from:

http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/mith.htm

http://www.tektonics...cat/mithra.html

http://www.ankerberg...se/MW0605W2.htm

you were sneakier than before, but it isn't hard to see that it was copied...now do those writers a favor and stop plagiarizing them...either paraphrase in your own words or give them credit...
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#19 AverageJoe

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 08:45 PM

K, just used to copying and pasting, sorry.
But anyways that is I have heard may christains try to talk it down because they know it makes their belief even more likely.
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#20 Kelso

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 08:55 PM

I'm curious where you copied and pasted. Some of your post was written very well, and you seem like a good author.





But still, copying from another page is ilegal and immoral. You should never do that on any publication, as you will be shunned by the net community.
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#21 AverageJoe

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:55 PM

Friends.


But back on the Christian subject, you should check out this video, and remember to watch part two http://www.youtube.c...c...domain.org/


I'm getting ticked off by Christian extremist the at think God will solve everything.
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#22 Helions

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 03:30 AM

QUOTE(awsomejoe23 @ Mar 16 2007, 08:55 PM) View Post
Friends.


But back on the Christian subject, you should check out this video, and remember to watch part two http://www.youtube.c...c...domain.org/


I'm getting ticked off by Christian extremist the at think God will solve everything.


have you ever read the Bible or participated in any Christian activities before? i really hope so because if you haven't, you're really something...hope you're not just copying what other people think...
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#23 AverageJoe

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 03:41 AM

Yes I have, I used to have a freind who was a die-hard Christian. I attended church activities with him on a fairly regular basis. I even want to a Christian church. When I was young I believed that god made science, this was merely because a heaven sounded good. So yes I have gone to many Christian events, and I didn't feel anything, except my leg did fall a sleep! Any ways my freind and I parted ways many years ago, though we both still believed in Christianity, I chose to also believe in science(logic). And as of a few months ago as I began to do more research on the topic I began to learn that Christianity and science just don't go together.
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#24 Helions

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 03:51 AM

QUOTE(awsomejoe23 @ Mar 17 2007, 03:41 AM) View Post
Yes I have, I used to have a freind who was a die-hard Christian. I attended church activities with him on a fairly regular basis. I even want to a Christian church. When I was young I believed that god made science, this was merely because a heaven sounded good. So yes I have gone to many Christian events, and I didn't feel anything, except my leg did fall a sleep! Any ways my freind and I parted ways many years ago, though we both still believed in Christianity, I chose to also believe in science(logic). And as of a few months ago as I began to do more research on the topic I began to learn that Christianity and science just don't go together.


all right, then i take back what i said...i was just assuming from the way you copied other writers, that you copied other people's thoughts...

what's interesting is when you call science logic, but not religion...yea, religion is based on faith, but it can be logical...you still haven't answered my questions...where did we come from? where did apes come from? where did anything come from? there has to have been a creator, no? it would be illogical to say that everything popped up out of nowhere...don't you agree?
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#25 AverageJoe

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 04:25 AM

Check out the atom boy section. I have explained a lot there.

P.S. I need to if you believe in evolution, becuase it would be quite pointless to debate if you did. wink.gif
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#26 Quantum Media LLC

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 08:39 AM

agreed

#27 Helions

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE(awsomejoe23 @ Mar 17 2007, 04:25 AM) View Post
Check out the atom boy section. I have explained a lot there.

P.S. I need to if you believe in evolution, becuase it would be quite pointless to debate if you did. wink.gif


i responded to your post in the atom boy section...

and have you ever looked into the intelligent design argument?

i don't think it matters if you believe in evolution or not to have a debate...especially this debate...my main argument is that it doesn't matter how life is evolving or how it evolved in the past...there MUST have been someone or something that created what led to everything that is today...

i'd also like to add that this debate could go on forever since neither of us can be disproved...it's just that the theory you're trying to convince me into believing doesn't have a logical beginning...
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#28 AverageJoe

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 10:35 PM

And yours does?
My beliefs may all not be proven but, and your right they will never be [b]100%[/b] proven neither will other things. let me give you a list of things can not be proven,
    [1]Whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow.
    [2]Whether our Earth will orbit around the sun tomorrow.
    [3]You are human.
    [4]Your dad is your dad.
    [5]Electricity will travel through metal.
    [6]Whether or not we have genes.

We just use deductive reason to prove these.
Deductive reason- is the kind of reasoning in which the conclusion is necessitated by, or reached from, previously known facts (the premises). If the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. This is distinguished from abductive and inductive reasoning, where the premises may predict a high probability of the conclusion, but do not ensure that the conclusion is true. For instance, beginning with the premises "All ice is cold" and "This is ice", you may conclude that "This is cold".

Deductive reasoning is dependent on its premises. That is, a false premise can possibly lead to a false result, and inconclusive premises will also yield an inconclusive conclusion.(wiki)
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#29 Helions

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 11:34 PM

you're using a browser...wasn't there a programmer who programmed it?

you see a painting...wasn't there a painter who painted it?

you look at your clothing...wasn't there a designer who designed it?

you live in a building...wasn't there an architect who planned it?


you look at the universe........wasn't there a higher being who/that created it?
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#30 AverageJoe

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 11:49 PM

Good points!


Water rains on the rock, the rock erodes. No one eroded the rock.

A bacteria splits. no one made the new bacteria.

The tides rise and fall. No one makes this happen.

So no [bleeped!] people make things, but some things(like a mountain, or the universe) were not made by anyone.

Now stop beating around the bush and reply to my last post.

Also TELL ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN




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